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	<title>Comments on: Rendundant Array of Inexpensive Servers</title>
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	<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/</link>
	<description>Everything about MySQL Performance</description>
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		<title>By: Jestep</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-356776</link>
		<dc:creator>Jestep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-356776</guid>
		<description>As far as bang for the buck, I love the Tyan Intel 701 servers. They have been extremely reliable in my experience, and are signifigantly less expensive than Dell&#039;s, Sun&#039;s and pretty much anything else I&#039;ve come across. They work great with a variety os OS&#039;s and support high-end raid controllers. Almost entry level price, with performance to match anything.

Something that I think a lot of people / companies overlook is power protection. I&#039;ve seen massive clusters plugged directly into standard outlets (Gulp)... Invest in a good UPS system if for nothing else than to bring your servers down nicely, it really goes a long way to preserve hardware.

Not sure how people keep their jobs when they lose hardware every time the lights flicker, but there&#039;s a ton of companies doing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as bang for the buck, I love the Tyan Intel 701 servers. They have been extremely reliable in my experience, and are signifigantly less expensive than Dell&#8217;s, Sun&#8217;s and pretty much anything else I&#8217;ve come across. They work great with a variety os OS&#8217;s and support high-end raid controllers. Almost entry level price, with performance to match anything.</p>
<p>Something that I think a lot of people / companies overlook is power protection. I&#8217;ve seen massive clusters plugged directly into standard outlets (Gulp)&#8230; Invest in a good UPS system if for nothing else than to bring your servers down nicely, it really goes a long way to preserve hardware.</p>
<p>Not sure how people keep their jobs when they lose hardware every time the lights flicker, but there&#8217;s a ton of companies doing it.</p>
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		<title>By: gentlemoose</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347872</link>
		<dc:creator>gentlemoose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 06:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347872</guid>
		<description>Kevin:
&quot;inexpensive&quot; does not mean &quot;cheap&quot;.  As peter said, it&#039;s a price/performance equation. A cluster of dell 2950s vs a sun e15k, for instance. It all depends on your workload. I can buy literally hundreds of &quot;commodity&quot;, supported, non-crap machines for the price of a piece of big iron and not have to worry about unplanned outages because I have the resources to failover easily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin:<br />
&#8220;inexpensive&#8221; does not mean &#8220;cheap&#8221;.  As peter said, it&#8217;s a price/performance equation. A cluster of dell 2950s vs a sun e15k, for instance. It all depends on your workload. I can buy literally hundreds of &#8220;commodity&#8221;, supported, non-crap machines for the price of a piece of big iron and not have to worry about unplanned outages because I have the resources to failover easily.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347870</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 06:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347870</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your feedback Gil,

Indeed DRBD is one of the good approaches to MySQL HA and is especially good one if you can&#039;t afford loosing any transactions but do not mind several minutes downtime (and some slowness while you warmup cache) as you switch.    Others choose to relay on MySQL replication (sometimes with google Synchronous replication patch) which has fast recovery and less warmup problems but has a bunch of problems on its own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your feedback Gil,</p>
<p>Indeed DRBD is one of the good approaches to MySQL HA and is especially good one if you can&#8217;t afford loosing any transactions but do not mind several minutes downtime (and some slowness while you warmup cache) as you switch.    Others choose to relay on MySQL replication (sometimes with google Synchronous replication patch) which has fast recovery and less warmup problems but has a bunch of problems on its own.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347793</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 02:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347793</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

This makes sense if you happen to have &quot;low end&quot; boxed. There are many clusters especially for high growth applications which got to this stage quickly which have pretty top end commodity hardware.  But I guess we understand each other.

I would be focusing on Price/Performance for  the choice however the price should also include man power, power, space etc. In this case cheap low end boxes will often be loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>This makes sense if you happen to have &#8220;low end&#8221; boxed. There are many clusters especially for high growth applications which got to this stage quickly which have pretty top end commodity hardware.  But I guess we understand each other.</p>
<p>I would be focusing on Price/Performance for  the choice however the price should also include man power, power, space etc. In this case cheap low end boxes will often be loss.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Burton</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347777</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Burton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 01:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347777</guid>
		<description>.... just to clarify ... and this might be a better way of explaining things. 

If your cluster is &lt; 50 machines you&#039;re probably better off scaling diagonally vs scaling horizontally / vertically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;. just to clarify &#8230; and this might be a better way of explaining things. </p>
<p>If your cluster is &lt; 50 machines you&#8217;re probably better off scaling diagonally vs scaling horizontally / vertically.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347771</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 00:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347771</guid>
		<description>Kevin,  

Inexpensive does not mean cheap :) It means commodity more than cheap in this case.
Same as with RAID - you&#039;re not saying because it says about Inexpensive you have to have your RAID filled with cheapest SATA drives ?   You quite well can do with SAS drives which are more expensive but still. 

Also number matters - it may be for your application $20K servers  are best choice, while for other it is $5K Servers - as long as you have many of them and you&#039;re not relaying on all of them staying up it is fine :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,  </p>
<p>Inexpensive does not mean cheap <img src='http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  It means commodity more than cheap in this case.<br />
Same as with RAID &#8211; you&#8217;re not saying because it says about Inexpensive you have to have your RAID filled with cheapest SATA drives ?   You quite well can do with SAS drives which are more expensive but still. </p>
<p>Also number matters &#8211; it may be for your application $20K servers  are best choice, while for other it is $5K Servers &#8211; as long as you have many of them and you&#8217;re not relaying on all of them staying up it is fine <img src='http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Burton</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347758</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Burton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 00:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347758</guid>
		<description>One should also think about using semi-expensive servers.

*inexpensive* servers implies that you&#039;re buying the cheapest boxes imaginable.

It&#039;s really a &quot;bang for your buck&quot; computation.

We&#039;re using somewhat mid-level machines now which has been yielding significant costs savings both in terms of machines pricing, power, and administration costs.

Kevin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One should also think about using semi-expensive servers.</p>
<p>*inexpensive* servers implies that you&#8217;re buying the cheapest boxes imaginable.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s really a &#8220;bang for your buck&#8221; computation.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re using somewhat mid-level machines now which has been yielding significant costs savings both in terms of machines pricing, power, and administration costs.</p>
<p>Kevin</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347726</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347726</guid>
		<description>Leo,

Indeed disk is the most typical component to fail. Speaking about slaves - indeed it is easy. It is easy to load balance transparently so you do not even notice if slave is gone and it is very easy to re-clone slaves automatically from the other slave or master.   What people are typically concerned is master failures :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leo,</p>
<p>Indeed disk is the most typical component to fail. Speaking about slaves &#8211; indeed it is easy. It is easy to load balance transparently so you do not even notice if slave is gone and it is very easy to re-clone slaves automatically from the other slave or master.   What people are typically concerned is master failures <img src='http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347724</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347724</guid>
		<description>Mike thanks for sharing,

I would really like more availability shared by people which run big amount of boxes.   I think you&#039;re right about human error and here a lot depends on automation and how uniform system is.  If you have 100 different systems it is much easier to screwup compared to running 1000 of instances of &quot;sharded&quot; data when you only use some toolset to do global operations (because it typically has to be done on all of them at once and because it would be a pain to do it manually)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike thanks for sharing,</p>
<p>I would really like more availability shared by people which run big amount of boxes.   I think you&#8217;re right about human error and here a lot depends on automation and how uniform system is.  If you have 100 different systems it is much easier to screwup compared to running 1000 of instances of &#8220;sharded&#8221; data when you only use some toolset to do global operations (because it typically has to be done on all of them at once and because it would be a pain to do it manually)</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/2008/08/21/rendundant-array-of-inexpensive-servers/comment-page-1/#comment-347691</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/?p=471#comment-347691</guid>
		<description>Peter, your point about having extra hardware available is a very good one. This is something I&#039;ve always been very paranoid about, especially since we use a managed host. Our current strategy is to ensure that every piece of hardware is operating redundantly, so that even if one appliance fails we know that there is *at least* one more of the same appliance in the datacenter. Moving to a new, untested hardware model is the last thing we want to do in the event of a critical hardware failure.

We use DRDB with a spare master to approach MySQL HA. Although many people feel like it is a waste of a perfectly good server, we simply can&#039;t afford to wait an hour (or more) for a technician at the datacenter to realize our primary server is failing, find the problem, replace the part, wait for the machine to reboot, and so on. As with all scalability plans this one is probably not permanent, but for now it works well enough and fits within our budget.

Mike, I&#039;ll definitely lament with you that my #1 source of downtime is running a query that I shouldn&#039;t have. With large data sets under high load, sometimes it can be difficult to understand the full consequences of queries that in other circumstances would not be an issue. My colleagues worry about downtime while I&#039;m on vacation, but they should worry more when I&#039;m at my desk tinkering :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, your point about having extra hardware available is a very good one. This is something I&#8217;ve always been very paranoid about, especially since we use a managed host. Our current strategy is to ensure that every piece of hardware is operating redundantly, so that even if one appliance fails we know that there is *at least* one more of the same appliance in the datacenter. Moving to a new, untested hardware model is the last thing we want to do in the event of a critical hardware failure.</p>
<p>We use DRDB with a spare master to approach MySQL HA. Although many people feel like it is a waste of a perfectly good server, we simply can&#8217;t afford to wait an hour (or more) for a technician at the datacenter to realize our primary server is failing, find the problem, replace the part, wait for the machine to reboot, and so on. As with all scalability plans this one is probably not permanent, but for now it works well enough and fits within our budget.</p>
<p>Mike, I&#8217;ll definitely lament with you that my #1 source of downtime is running a query that I shouldn&#8217;t have. With large data sets under high load, sometimes it can be difficult to understand the full consequences of queries that in other circumstances would not be an issue. My colleagues worry about downtime while I&#8217;m on vacation, but they should worry more when I&#8217;m at my desk tinkering <img src='http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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